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Post by raffe on Mar 14, 2008 3:32:58 GMT -5
Hi AI enthusiasts. I am new to this forum and I didn't read it all... I have a proposition for you all. I made a theoretical Ai model that I think can do anything humans do.I cant make it all by myself but I also don't want to tell the model to anyone . I want to be rich and I think that by telling the model all will be lost for me. So what can we do then? I need help with coding. I see there are many people that are willing to help. So here is my offer: We all begin to work into this. I keep the project as I know what is to be done (and dont want to tell , and when is done we share the benefits. (I am very honest - stupidity honest you might say so nobody will double cross you. We will benefit according with our involvement and if we do this we wil be very rich) I have so many coding jobs for you guys. I am not a good people organizer so there is a position for everyone who want to get involved. let me tell you some words about me and my theoryI finished the law school . I begin to work as a programmer because I found this to be more what I liked compared to the law domain where I had to deal with much human pain, lies... corruption, drama. I also studied philosophy. I searched what life, god and universe are. I think I solved those problems I also wont tell you about this. I will only tell you that there are two things that I could not solve and I called them the 2 only mysteries:1 - the appearance of something: In short is about that something cannot appear from nothing, nothing can exist without appearing, so the first conclusion is that nothing exist. But the most certain thing from this mystery is that something exist. I am not talking about big bang, I am talking about all philosophical or scientific theories of first appearance. I wont say like other philosops that bring some theory to solve this problem, I will just say is a mistery. 2 - the second unsolved mystery is the evolution of signs. The zodiac. Dont smile. Everybody knows that signs are true but they are so old that they are considered legend by scientists and avoided. I discovered that the signs also evolve from one to another. Every sign is what the sign before wanted to be: Pisces are humbil so they become proud - aries. Aries are proud but want to be rich so they become taurus. taurus is rich and want to control people to be more rich so gemini appears. gemini is so involved in human relations that he is wondering about other misteryes so cancer appears. cancer is poetic and practical - so his behaviour is conflicted so he want to control his behaviour. Lion appears. Lion want to do things faster so Virgo apears. virgo works lot and want to rest so Libra appears. Libra is resting so want do some science so scorpio appears. Scorpio do science but have no friends so sagitaturus appears who is friends oriented. I let you see the next signs evolution After begining to work into programming I understand that I can make this computer model. The understanding of life also helped me a lot. The model works like this: I studied how brain works and I think I can put that model into coding specifications. (I did some of that) I made some theoretical tests like how is he going to solve a problem. The model involves video, audio and text handling. Other senses can be put into schema later. To do this Ai I need harware and software. hardware: I need a strong computer - not as strong as belived - but an usual strong pc. I think this will do for begining. The most precessing will be done in video analisys not in data base. The data base model is made to avoid infinit recursivity so it will be very fast. I also need some other things like video cameras and stuff. software: about this I will talk to you guys in more details whan you will agree to begin working. I am thinking to make this in C as is known by manny people and is very fast and portable. I need you guis to get involved into this. If I will receive what I need we will make this. I dont need to tell you what can be done with such a Ai right? There are so many other things to say but I mad this message already so big and I hate big messages so I will stop here. I am keen to hear your opinions. raffethefirst@yahoo.com yahoo messenger: raffethefirst
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Post by raffe on Mar 14, 2008 12:50:34 GMT -5
My account also is not activated even if on main page it says that las account created is raffethefirst and the status displayed is activated.
When I try to login it says that account is pending.
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 14, 2008 13:12:06 GMT -5
First, welcome to the forum!
> I made a theoretical Ai model that I think can do anything humans do.
This forum is about creating a system, which is unrestricted. This condition means a lot philosophically, and there likely are at least not many solutions. So first, think through your model, considering that condition. If your aim is also to create an unrestricted system, and you have good ideas of how to develop it, then we are glad when you join your efforts with us, especially good that you know C, C is the best joice for programming language, and likely a lot of C programming would be necessary.
> I want to be rich and I think that by telling the model all will be lost for me.
I think you are terribly wrong here, the opposite is true. True AI is more about science than technology, no one can take your idea and make $$$ immediately. But science doesn't accept any new or unusual idea, so no one would be interested in taking over your idea. By keeping it in secrecy, you cannot protect yourself, it only makes it much more difficult for you to prove that the idea was originally yours, when someone else claims that it is his, when you reveal only a part of your idea. And we are by far not rich enough, to win any patent dispute, so the only way for us to defend our ideas, is making them widely available and known, under open source licenses, then no one else can also patent them. So i think that the best for you is to reveal your ideas, and join our efforts of open source development, only that way it is possible for us to co-operate, as developing true AI also involves developing ideas, not only code, and together we are stronger. And we would share the benefits (if there ever would be any), the development is open source, and no one's contribution would be denied.
> I begin to work as a programmer because I found this to be more what I liked compared to the law domain where I had to deal with much human pain, lies... corruption, drama.
I have done legal work as well, and it's true that you see so much unpleasant, lies, corruption, but i still like such work more than programming. Mostly, many things are arbitrary, in programming, everything is not based on good and well thought through theory, as they want you to believe. Like, almost all programming languages are based only one someone's doctrine, and not at all substantiated theoretically, in every detail. So programming is not completely neutral, either, in spite that it could be. I would like to do something thorougly theoretical, like i did in developing ADS-AC, but i have no chance to do such or similar work, for money.
> the appearance of something: In short is about that something cannot appear from nothing
I once conceived nothing as an infinite space with limitless number of dimension, which is completely unvaried, the existance of such is extremely improbable, but considering that it is also infinite, it is improbable to the extent that it is impossible. In general, it is not probable that nothing exists.
> the second unsolved mystery is the evolution of signs
I don't have an idea what do you mean by signs. One thing i thought about signs though, was that some signs in sacred geometry, may well have some kind of mathematical or theoretical meaning. And also meaning as part of a graph, as the patterns of the topology of connections, are really the only possible objects there, and the patterns like pentagon and hexagon, are very basic. What i noticed was for example that pentagon-like structures develop quickly in ADS, while hexagon-like structures are more stable. Maybe this says something about the properties, of some signs.
> The most precessing will be done in video analisys
I don't think that developing vision and such is essential for solving theoretical problems. A basic system can work only based on characters input and output, everything can be converted to such i/o, also vision, so these are not so important theoretically. If really necessary, for some tests, a simple image processing system can be made, say as a part of the training program, but this is not essential or the most important part of the system. I don't think we need video cameras, it's much easier to do a 3d simulation of a simple environment, if absolutely necessary, nothing more complicated would be necessary. But i personally don't think that this would be necessary, at first.
> The data base model is made to avoid infinit recursivity so it will be very fast.
It's true that almost all kind of models can be implemented using database, but this is not fast. Much faster is to use structures like binary trees, where necessary. All the processing can also be done non-recursively, which is preferred, as it enables to better develop the structure of the system, it would then also be kind of more open.
I think you should first read everything you find here, including the ADS-AC project, and seriously try to understand it all. It is beneficial to learn what others did, and also what is officially known today, about Artificial Consciousness, there are some very important things. And then, if you feel so, start to join the efforts with us. It's extremely necessary, as everything stands only because there are no people, who would really develop the things further. I would be glad if you decide to indeed participate in the development.
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 14, 2008 13:25:57 GMT -5
> My account also is not activated even if on main page it says that las account created is raffethefirst and the status displayed is activated.
They added the feature of account activation, to proboards forums recently. Your account should now be activated.
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Post by raffethefirst on Mar 14, 2008 14:50:46 GMT -5
- I am not sure what you mean by unrestricted. Lets state that NOTHING is going to be done just to be done. EVERYTHING is going to be made whit a purpose and most likely this purpose is helping humans.
Going from here I think ai will be done with a PURPOSE - to help people - not to just exist like a poetry or something. So ai will be that much restricted as needed to serve this purpose. The most unrestricted ai will be random :).
> no one can take your idea and make $$$ immediately
You are wrong here. there are lot of companies that have LOT of money ad are circling around some problems like solving infinite recursion and other. They will swallow this in a breath. You have to trust me on this one.
> I don't have an idea what do you mean by signs. You did not understand that I am talking about astrological signs - zodiac ... determining your astrological sign after the date of birth? The second mystery is how can such a thing exist.
> I don't think that developing vision and such is essential for solving theoretical problems
I cant say much here :). You just image an apple. You see a picture. And now try to ignore that picture and try to think at an apple only in text :). I cant say much more here :).
> Much faster is to use structures like binary trees. We dont need to go fast for now we just need to go. As you probably know from refactoring policies in programming is usually more productive to have things done clearly than in an hard to understand way but with a bonus in application speed. We need to do things simple for now so many people can join.
> and also what is officially known today, about Artificial Consciousness
I have some bad news for you but I cant tell them to you. I know what Consciousness is and is far far away of what is believed.
this was reply to your reply ===================== Now here are some other things:
- I want to ask you what do you think Consciousness is to humans not what is in ai.
- I do understand that all by myself I cant do nothing. So I will happily join some other people. Lets just find a way to collaborate. I am open to alternatives. But I am also pretty sure I wont tell a thing in public about my theory :).
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 14, 2008 18:04:15 GMT -5
> I am not sure what you mean by unrestricted. I used to mean by unrestricted such system, where whatever system and whatever behavior can emerge as a result of training, not by pre-coding or pre-wiring it anyhow. Such system, being able to adapt, tries to achieve harmony with the environment, not because that aim is anyhow pre-programmed, but becauseit comes from its mechanism, and only from the requirement that it must be unrestricted. Therefore also unrestricted system is not random, but is fully self-developing. Achieving harmony with the environment is the most general aim, and the only aim which doesn't have to be pre-programmed. You may read further in ADS-AC project etc, what achieving harmony with the environment supposed to mean much more exactly. Having any other pre-determined aim or purpose, makes the system restricted, and this is not unrestricted system any more. If you like to create such systems, make some genetic algorithms, they are good for some special purpose, but this forum is not about developing systems with restricted purpose > there are lot of companies that have LOT of money ad are circling around some problems like solving infinite recursion and other Yes but they are still interested in something which would give them benefit in the near future. A true AI and unrestricted system is only about research, and this would not give them any material benefit in any foreseeable future, so they will not invest in it, no matter how much money they have. I guess military has the most money, but i have even talked to one high rank person from the military, he happened to be very interested in ADS, but he didn't even think that there can be any benefit of it, to the military. Many people who i discussed with through email, were interested in ADS, there were scientists, people working in different companies etc, but unfortunately i cannot say the details, as i never reveal any information written to me by email, without the consent of the person who wrote it. > And now try to ignore that picture and try to think at an apple only in text . It is proved a long ago that this is possible, there are deaf-blind people who graduated university, they should been able to think about much more complicated things than an apple, without ever seeing it, and they certainly also couldn't touch all the things which they learned about. > We need to do things simple for now so many people can join. Doing things using databases is not simpler, as it makes it much more difficult to understand the structure of the data, it is easiest to follow and code when a structure is represented as it is, not coded into a database. And at that, database is always slower than using eg binary trees, which are very easy to implement. > I know what Consciousness is and is far far away of what is believed. It is not that nothing is known about consciousness, consciousness has certain well determined aspects, defined by Bernard Baars, Igor Aleksander etc, which determine most of it. The easiest is to consider consciousness as awareness, but awareness of processes, from that comes the ability to model processes in the environment only by the information gathered from senses, to run them further, from that comes the ability to predict, and all the other abilities. Therefore consciousness is not a mystery any more, and one cannot say any more that it is something completely different than what is known, it certainly isn't completely different. But it is not correct to say that you know what consciousness is, this almost equivalent to saying that you know everything. The important philosophical principle is, that no one can know someone else's subjective experience, and this makes it impossible to know everything about consciousness. Therefore we can only know and research Artificial Consciousness, which is based on the known aspects of consciousness, and can be defined. This may enable us to know most about consciousness, and we can make systems which for the most part work the same way as the brain, but we cannot know everything about consciousness, and therefore we can never completely model the brain. This is also why strong AI is impossible, as Searle explained, but true AI is possible.
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Post by raffethefirst on Mar 15, 2008 2:38:16 GMT -5
Yes. I know to make this.
I think is of no relevance how restricted is if he is doing the job but indeed my theoretical model is pretty much what you described.
My goal is to make it to improve humans life and for me to become rich. I see your goal is to make it with no purpose but to exist unrestricted.
I think you should have first target to make it and then to make it unrestricted...
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Post by zouze on Mar 15, 2008 5:11:23 GMT -5
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 15, 2008 11:41:28 GMT -5
> I see your goal is to make it with no purpose but to exist unrestricted.
No, my goal is to make unrestricted system, which would be a true AC system. And the purpose of making such system is to research AC, to develop science and understand more about consciousness. Such knowledge is important for humanity, to understand more about ourselves and consciousness, the most advanced thing in the universe. So the reason is almost the same, why the amateur astronomers observe the sky. We just need a better scope, which is unrestricted AC system that would enable to research AC.
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Post by raffethefirst on Mar 15, 2008 13:53:32 GMT -5
I know what consciousness is to people and I dont find it useful to make a goal of implementing it in an ai system. As I told you tkorrovi, my model do that along other more important things like ability to do research on his own. Help me to bring this to life and you will have your artificial consciousness. But I am telling you that it keeps no deep mystery. Anyway I am offering to help you as I can in your pursuit. Tell me what you need and if I can help you I will. Also I want to say something for everybody reading this: I want to bring this project to life but not for free. It will bring great income it might make the people that helps me the richest man in the world (maybe by far . I am hoping that somebody rich enough to afford the development of this project will read this and help me.
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 15, 2008 14:10:22 GMT -5
Again, it is not possible to implement consciousness in AI system, it is possible to implement Artificial Consciousness, the difference between these is important, and should be understood. The terms are important.
The goal is not implementing consciousness, the goal is implementing an unrestricted system.
> As I told you tkorrovi, my model do that along other more important things like ability to do research on his own.
The ability to do research on his own is not yet enough, some genetic algorithms are also able to do that, the goal is to create an unrestricted system.
Also, when you tell nothing about your model and your ideas, it is the same as you don't have any, any co-operation between several people is only possible when all the information is made openly available. My system and all my ideas are open for everyone, under the open source license, and so such things are by now the only ones where to proceed from. Well, also all what is known in science about Artificial Consciousness, is openly available, and this knowledge should be used as well.
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 15, 2008 18:35:51 GMT -5
Also, when you are going to create some AI system for a restricted purpose (which i'm not interested in, i just say how it is in general), then you first have to decide what is the task for what you make your system. A general purpose, like help people, is not enough, as it also has to be defined what way and in what the system should help people. Also other general purposes, like to survive, are not enough, because it has to be defined then, what the survival for that particular system means. And this goal may not enable any very advanced functionality, like one such system was made which was only concerned that its batteries would not become low, so what it did all the time is that it seeked for new power supply sockets to charge its batteries, this was not a very smart system. Only the goal of achieving harmony with the environment is wide enough, the system must make sure that the result of its actions as much as possible correspond to its predictions. So with whatever goal, it must be decided for what task the system should be made, and this is what people can usually never agree while starting new project, also they are not satidfied that the system which they create can implement only a restricted task, most of the AI projects stalled exactly for that reason. So the only system which most people agree with, is an unrestricted system, there is no question for what task it should be made, and it is about the most general research. Some people agreed with that, and this is the purpose of this forum, but creating an unrestricted system is by far not very simple, and needs a lot of study and understanding.
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Post by raffethefirst on Mar 16, 2008 2:07:55 GMT -5
I don't have an issue with what my system is called AI, AC or something else. The name didn't seem of a big importance to me. I tell you what it will do and you can call it what you like.
This system will not be programed to do any decision. It will learn, extract his rules, work to improve his results and act. However it will be programmed to have some goals. I will set those so he will do what I need him to do.
Those goals will be set in categories like mandatory or just guidelines and so on... Those goals will first be the no hurt people and stuff... Then it will come the goal of helping people.
This goal will work like this: I will not sat and think how can we help people? And make a possibly wrong decision. I will let the people decide through market how they need to be helped. They will buy the most useful thing for them.
So we will begin to make products (don't ask me here) and we will sell them. The more we will sell the more we will help peoples.
Isn't this what you want to do? A system that you can set the goals and he can do the rest?
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 16, 2008 11:07:24 GMT -5
> I don't have an issue with what my system is called AI, AC or something else.
The name isn't really important, important is that it is unrestricted. The difference between artificial intelligence/consciousness is important though, because intelligence is a narrower term. For unrestricted system, we should proceed from the meaning of consciousness, considering it as awareness of processes, all the properties of an unrestricted system can be derived from this.
> However it will be programmed to have some goals.
The unrestricted system can develop goals, and can be made to do that through the conversation. Like, it would develop goal to either win or loose some game, and then it would always try to win or loose that game. But it has no pre-programmed goal, it was not and couldn't be unrestricted then.
> Isn't this what you want to do? A system that you can set the goals and he can do the rest?
This is an absolute opposite to what i want to do. If you want to create systems with fixed goal, create some genetic algorithms, but this is a conventional AI. This forum is not about conventional AI, except for comparing it to true AI, and showing what way one or another conventional AI system is restricted. I don't know what ideas you have, and they may be original, but considering what you want to do, i would advise you to rather learn more about genetic algorithms, a lot of things which you think are your ideas, might be known already, and you don't have to invent a wheel. You also have to consider that any restricted AI, like any AI with a fixed goal, can be made only for some restricted task. When we pre-program the goal, then we also have to code the whole system so that it can achieve that goal. Like, you can make a system which sells certain products, trying to satisfy the people's needs, but this system likely even cannot sell any other kind of products. BTW, there are such systems already made, i think this is nothing essentially new, so again, you should learn first the existing similar systems. You might have some ideas, but then do it, and maybe you can even make money, when you develop some electronic commerce systems. But i'm not willing to help you, as i only develop true AI, and i'm not interested in developing the conventional AI.
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Post by tkorrovi on Mar 16, 2008 11:58:42 GMT -5
If you want to create a restricted AI system with fixed goal, which is called genetic algorithm, for some electronic commerce task, then i would advise you to create a SourceForge project for that. That way you may also find people who are interested exacly in what you want to make, and they can help you to develop your system. But this forum cannot be used for development of any restricted AI system, and AI system with restricted goal, also not for any joint efforts for creating such system, even if it would include an unrestricted system, this forum is only for developing an unrestricted system.
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